Should all British Police be armed?

I post the following with no comment:

In June 1980, hostage Gail Kinchin and her unborn baby were killed in crossfire between West Midlands officers and her boyfriend.
On 24 August 1985 John Shorthouse aged 5 was shot dead in a police raid on his home in Birmingham. The incident produced hostility towards the police over two days after John's death when a policewoman was dragged from her patrol car and beaten by youths. Following the Shorthouse case, West Midlands police abandoned its practice of training rank-and-file officers for firearms duties and formed a specialist squad.[28]

On 15 January 1998 James Ashley, 39, was shot and killed by Sussex Police while naked and unarmed during a drugs raid at his flat. The officer who fired the shots was cleared of any wrongdoing after a trial at the Old Bailey.[29]

In June 1999 Derek Bateman, 47, of Surrey was shot by a single bullet through the heart after his girlfriend went to a neighbour's house and telephoned the police, telling them he was armed and had been threatening to shoot her. It was later determined that the weapon he had brandished at the police was an air pistol.[30]

On 22 September 1999 Harry Stanley, a painter and decorator, born in Bellshill near Glasgow, was walking home when he was shot dead by two Metropolitan Police officers following an erroneous report that he was carrying a sawn-off shotgun in a plastic bag. The officers challenged Mr Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them they shot him dead at a distance of 5 metres. It later emerged that the plastic bag actually contained a broken table leg that Stanley's brother had just fixed for him. Following numerous enquiries (in November 2004 a jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing) both officers were exonerated after 6 years of court cases and inquiries. It was found that neither officer was liable for criminal charges nor would face any disciplinary sanctions. However, the report did make notable recommendations to the police on the post-incident procedure to be followed after a shooting and about challenging members of the public from behind.[31]

On 12 July 2001 Mr Andrew Kernan, 37, a gardener from Wavertree in Liverpool was shot dead in the street by the second of two shots fired by officers of the Merseyside Police Force. The officers had been called to the scene by the victim's mother, Marie Kernan, who had also requested a psychiatric medical team attend her home because her schizophrenic son, Andrew Kernan, was being aggressive. At least four police officers from the Merseyside force went to Mrs Kernan's flat but Andrew Kernan ran into the street, dressed in his pyjamas, wielding a Katana. Mr Kernan slashed off the wing mirror of one of the police cars. After negotiating with him for 25 minutes and using CS gas, officers fired two shots. The second bullet hit Mr Kernan in the chest and he died on the way to hospital. In the case of Andrew Kernan, the Chief Constable of Merseyside Police Norman Bettison took the unusual step of sending a hand-written letter to Marie Kernan with his apologies. The then Home Secretary David Blunkett ordered a review of how armed police were used, and the dead man's mother, Marie Kernan, 59, commented at the time: "You don't kill somebody with a mental illness. I demand justice for Andrew and won't rest until I get an answer." However, a verdict of lawful killing was returned by the jury at Liverpool District Coroner's Court on 9 December 2004, and the Coroner, Andre Rebello, praised the actions of the officers at the scene. The IPCA Commissioner for the North West, Mike Franklin, stated that “the officers involved in this case were presented with a rapidly evolving scenario... Firearms officers at the scene acted bravely and the investigation has found no evidence that their actions fell below that required or expected of them." [32]

On 22 July 2005, Jean Charles de Menezes, a Brazilian national living in London, was shot dead by unnamed Metropolitan Police officers on board an Underground train at Stockwell tube station, in the belief he was a suicide bomber. He was shot in the back of the head 7 times. Initially, police claimed incorrectly that he was wearing bulky clothing and that he had vaulted the ticket barriers running from police when challenged, but did not modify their statement until the correct information was leaked to the press. They later issued an apology, saying that they had mistaken him for a suspect in the previous day's failed bombings and acknowledging that de Menezes in fact had no explosives and was unconnected with the attempted bombings. Following an investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), the Crown Prosecution Service announced on 17 July 2006, that no charges would be brought against any individual officers in relation to the death of Jean Charles. Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police when the shooting occurred will, however, face charges under Health and Safety legislation from his professional — rather than personal — capacity. The family of Jean Charles has called on the government to open a public inquiry into the shooting.[33]

In June 2007 Anne Sanderson was shot dead by an armed officer in Sevenoaks, Kent after being seen with what was later identified as a BB gun, which she refused to relinquish when challenged by police. It was the first fatal shooting of a woman by UK Police in 27 years (and first time ever that the shooting was deliberate).[34] A month previously police officers had found notes in Sanderson's car which had suicidal connotations, but no action was taken. A subsequent IPCC investigation noted this, as well as other procedural issues in the investigation, but stated that they "did not have a negative impact on the incident's outcome". In addition, the report said that officers involved "performed their duties conscientiously and diligently" and that an inquest jury returned a verdict of lawful killing.[35]

On August 4, 2011, Mark Duggan was shot dead by the MPS, sparking massive riots across London. Four officers are being investigated in the incident, although it was speculated "in leaks from official sources to The Times newspaper... that the firearms officer [would] be cleared of any wrongdoing on the basis that he had "an honest-held belief that he was in imminent danger of him or his colleagues being shot".[36]

Arm the police, if it saves one policeman/woman it would be worth it.

Scum who use guns will use them if the police are armed or not.

And bring back hanging as a deterrent, this pandering to the convicted criminals, protecting their civil rights etc. has to stop.

Murder seems a everyday crime now a days, even if a couple split up, it seems to end in one dying.

I would give the officers the choice , I think they should all have tazers as a minimum but I dont think our rank and file should be forced to carry a firearm if they dont want to , if those were normal bobbies that had rocked up instead of armed response the other day they too would have become victims .........oh and david aiketgate "For the other 5%, which is London and a couple of other terrorist target cities," Have you forgotten derek bird? , an armed bobbie could have saved at least 20 people from being shot that day

First I just like to say how everyone here in Oz is horrified by the resent tragedy. Our sympathies to all effected by it.

I'll not tell you how you should run your country, and I'll leave the moral and emotional arguments to you lot.
But I will point out that here in Oz the coppers all carry sidearms (they have done so for years) and it hasn't caused the crims to get into an arms race with them.
So based on the experience here, I don't see the 'arms race' argument stacks up.
In fact I'd go so far as to say that it smells a bit like weasel words from some political hypocrite with an agenda.

I'm just offering a perspective from someone outside looking in, make of it what you will.

In my experience Australians have a very different attitude to much of the world, including the UK and States. Very forward thinking in many ways and almost victorian in some. There is a very relaxed attitude to life everywhere I went and this is probably why it doesnt have the problems that the States has.

"In fact I'd go so far as to say that it smells a bit like weasel words from some political hypocrite with an agenda"

The words are mine, and I am no political hypocrite with any agenda. What I actually said was, I would FEAR an escalation. I carried a gun for years because so many criminals where I lived also carried guns. My fear is based on my EXPERIENCE, not a (hypocritical) political agenda, or any other agenda. It got so bad where I lived that the cash withdrawal card of choice became the AK47. I do not want to see Britain go down that road. You are entitled to your opinion, but terms like weasel words are simply insulting. We value our freedom of speech here. You can do what you like in Australia.

"In fact I'd go so far as to say that it smells a bit like weasel words from some political hypocrite with an agenda"

I believe he may be pre-empting, as are we, the words that are likely to come from our politicians Dave. Based on experience, I doubt we're a million miles from the truth on that. :hugs:

Could be, Leigh, but it does seem kind of obviously aimed at my earlier post. If not, then fine, we will move on.

No worries mate.

You'll be able to transfer that paranoia to where it's best served, once your car's back. The coolant tank. :lol:

Don't be so touchy Dave, I know what your exact words were. I don't muck about, if I was directing it at you, you'd feel like you had been hit by a freight train. I don't do weasel words.

Just tonight on the news here they were interviewing one of your political windbags and he was banging on about that very issue and the term "arms race" came out amongst all the other verbal diarrhoea.
Now if we over here copping some of this spray, I can only imagine you lot must be wading in it. So under those circumstances, I stand by my comment "that it smells a bit like weasel words from some political hypocrite with an agenda"

Please refrain from letting your political windbags pollute our TV screens, it's bad enough that we have to watch our own talking absolute rubbish!

So I gather the whole thing is now a political football.
Isn't it amazing where all others see a tragedy, politicians see a point scoring or photo opportunity :nonod:
And that's the last I'll say on the matter

We know who all the really smart people are yet we insist on putting the compulsive liars in charge everywhere it seems.

Anyway, back on topic gents. :whistle:

I believe the time for arming the police in the UK will be inevitable in our lifetimes. Whether we like it or not. It'll be made a bigger deal than it needs to be of course. But it seems to be less of an issue elsewhere. Actually, it seems to be quite acceptable. :yesnod:

Yeah, whatever.