Undetectable rattle at the front offside

Hi All, 

First of all a short introduction, my name is Zsolt and I'm from Austria. I have MG TF 135 from 2002 since last year with 77000 mls on the clock, it was imported from the UK to Germany and finally it landed by me in Austria. I swapped my Piaggio MP3 Yourban 300, from a three-wheeler back to four wheels. It is a really standard one, no AC, no ABS, just a car. 

Since I have the MG, I have a strange rattling in the front, it is a bit difficult to describe it, it sound like a bar is wobbling and hitting another part, it is really strange because I have it also on even roads, so not only on bumpy roads. As soon I start to drive the car the rattle is there and it is also independent from speed or rpm, as somebody would seat in the boot and periodically hitting against some metal. 

The car had to do an official approval in Austria, to be road legal, that means it was a very detailed check (it is more or less a check like homologation), they found that the offside lower arm joint has to be changed, but the rattle is still there. As I had to also a new approval similar to the MOT, with the standard checking procedure nothing was found. 

What I have done so far:

- changed the front brake pads
- changed the shock absorbers (they had also a slight movement at the lower bush) to the softride kit
- changed the upper ball joints
- there is not feelable movement in the top-arm-joints and full of grease
- changed the track rods
- I had a movement and knocking at the cross tube assembly which connects the brake-pedal with the brake master cylinder, it is also solved already, the clevis pins were worn. I have still a rattling on the brake pedal, but the rattling what I'm searching for is still there even if I'm braking
- I'm not sure, If the rattling can be connected to the fact, that the whole car is vibrating as the front cooling fan is running?! 
- spare wheel is removed from the boot
- front mounting of the front subframe changed

As you can see I already searched for solutions and done the most of it, but now I have no clue anymore. Maybe some additional ideas? 

Thanks. 

Hi down there! I also have an MGTF built in 2002 and also have Knocking noise!  You seem to have done all the checks I have done, apart from taking the drivers door apart.  I THINK my noise is coming from inside the door, but sometimes sounds from further forward.  There are some brilliant "How To" guides on the www.MG-ROVER.ORG site, I intend to follow their instructions for "Central locking mechanism replacement how to" guide to remove the door trim etc. to search for loose actuating arms between the inside door handle and lock.

I suspect that "OUR" problem is more suspension related however (bad news!) but as both vehicles have passed an MOT test or the Aussie equivalent and then some, by sound of things, hopefully nothing is just about to fall off!
Have you been able to look at the underside while the car is on a ramp/4-post lift?  I had some concerns about brake efficiency, so paid my local garage to repeat a brake test and let me have a dekko. I will try to attach a picture:
 
I wish you good hunting and will keep a close watch on this thread!
Thanks for asking the question
Regards
John E

Hi  :welcome2:

Have you checked the anti roll bar bush. I had a front offside knocking that turned out to be a worn bush.

In the door the window mechs can become loose. Its worth re-tightening all the nuts and bolts. 

It was on a four post lift and also two post lift to check the things. Luckily, I have a very good garage, which was the first "British Leyland" Garage in Austria and still a sanctuary for british car lovers, but because the garage is totally overbooked I try to find and repair things instead of waiting. 

I see, there are a lot of additional possibilities for the rattle, maybe it will be a lifetime destiny. On my old Jaguar XJ40, I searched 2 years to find out that the rattle was from a small washer on the shock absorber and was amplified through the body. 

On think which makes me wonder, the rattle is always there regardless of the road surface. I couldn't say it gets worse on uneven roads. 

So next steps:
- I will change the anti roll bar bush, I already bought it, but I did not changed it because it looked like lot more smaller then the one, which is mounted. 
- Check the "interiors" of the door
- Search for additional lose bolts (that is something I used to it, have to do it every 500 km on my Royal Enfield) 

I will keep this thread updated. 

There is a longitudinal bar within the dashboard (goes the whole width of the dashboard from one side to the other) that occasionally can suffer a failed weld on one end or the other; result was a metallic sounding rattle. This mainly occurred with early MGFs but could be the issue with your TF. You can see the bar without taking the dash out.
The fix was to take out the dashboard and reweld the bar at the failed end.

Hello again and I have remembered something which may be helpful:
A Man called Mark A Paget wrote a very interesting article called something like:
Death Through Dehydration
which was about Mini - Moke - Metro and MGF suspension
Below is an extract:
Rover 100 and MG-F are unusual for popular small cars. Despite being produced in the 1990s and early 2000s, they still have grease points. Virtually all their competitors had ‘sealed
Copyright Paget 2010
for life’ systems. Therefore industry and public attitudes had already moved away from physically lubricating any vehicle. The result of course is obvious. As both models continue to use the same design of pivot pin as the others, the same problems can be expected.
Lack of lubrication results in;
 premature wear to bearings (bushes),
 pivot pin wear,
 thrust face erosion at the end of each arm, and
 after prolonged periods, erosion of the arm’s internal faces to which the bearings mount.
This may present itself as noise, excess free play, seizure or collapse (catastrophic failure). Even with the most fastidiously assembled arms, lubricant flow can be haphazard. Countless arms can be found where lubricant will only move to one end. Despite the vast array of non-genuine pins (with their wildly varying tolerances), none have improved the lubrication system. A simple alternative for rear units would be to introduce another nipple and drilling at the pin’s inner end. This would of course increase the chance of adequate grease distribution.
Front arms fair no better but are not serviced on an exchange basis. Applied load tends to mask problems such as free play. Ignorance and avoidance of the problem creates lack of demand, hence lack of supply.
Unlike many other suspension components, there are no aftermarket reproduction arms. The possible exception being the mystery brand Chinese made rears for 13” Moke. However these at best ‘resemble’ the genuine part. Choke (Chinese-Moke) parts are manufactured to No accepted International Standard. Sellers and stockists of course recommend their product but buyers tend to be limited to the extremely tight-fisted. ‘Cheap’ Moke owners are an acknowledged social phenomenon.
The only effective answer is to attentively lubricate the original factory system. Ideally this would occur every 1000 miles with an extreme outside limit of 3000 (1500 > 5000 Km). A well serviced Mini can be easily expected to be on its original rear pins and arms after forty years. If not for pin failure, Big wheel Moke could match this. Though finding a well serviced example of either car can be extremely difficult. If not for the following problem, front arms could be well expected to outlast the vehicle. However the service and repair of this next component is beyond that of the owner/driver.
A second area of concern is the knuckle joint
I am not clever enough to be able to send a link, but you should be able to Google search it.

He is from your part of the World, by-the-way!  He is certainly a World-Class expert on Hyrdragas and Hydrolastic suspension systems.  I used to sell Materials Testing Systems, and he certainly knows what he is talking about re springs and suspension systems. A VERY useful bloke to meet-up with if you can. Pleae pass my thanks for his advice (Which steerd me towards a metal-sprung TF rather than a Hydragas MGF.
Regards
John E

Hi and welcome to the forum zsoltgraz

I too immediately thought of the anti roll bush.

James

Hi John,

Thanks for the detailed description, but I have also a TF. 

Zsolt

Hi James,

I will check the anti roll bar bushes again, as I checked them a week ago, there were no visible signs. Maybe it is not visible or only if the car is moving and the front end is under load.

Zsolt

The TF suspension also has a couple of grease nipples that can do with the odd squirt.

Hi zsoltgraz, Yes I know yours is a TF, In fact my first response to your question said "Hi down there, I also have a 2002 TF"
Mr Pagets comments about dehydration DO still apply to the UPPER suspension arms. The SUBFRAME was changed to accommodate steel springs instead of Hydragas, but the upper arms were essentially the same. If you look on the Rimmer Bros. website, the upper arms for the TF still have needle rollers and grease nipples. Paget's point it that mecanics do not bother with greasing these nipples, and a design flaw means that the needle rollers furthest from the nipples are starved of grease.

Hope your rattle and mine are both caused by something else, but if we do have to replace upper arms, the good news is that Rimmer Bros seem to have these arm assemblies or the component parts (if some of your parts are re-useable) in-stock.
Regards
John E

Thanks, that is true, I hope that it is not the top arm, I checked it yesterday again with put apart each side, with detaching the top ball joint and the damper from the top arm, very very slight movement is there, but I was not able to create the rattling sound, even as I put back everything together and put it under load, it is somehow not reproduceable stationary. Just in case, I already bought the oilite bearings from Mike Satur. 

Another thing, which makes me wonder is, that the rattle has no effect on driving, so I can brake hard from 80 kmh to 0 without pulling the car to any side and also driving on the highway with 140 kmh and skipping the steering wheel, the car is just running straight ahead. 

What I already thought, it could be also the inner track rod at the steering rack, which would be the worst case, the inner track rod is not available as a standalone part and since brexit it is a bit difficult to get a RHD steering rack in Europe.